(no subject)

[eretria]

rhienelleth offers a well thought-out, level-headed and important discussion on the subject of rape used in fanfiction and on why writers should think twice about what and how they label their stories, and how far people should and shouldn't go.

eta: by "think about what you're writing" I'm referring especially to things seen in fic-reviews,
>grins< No I don't...... >clears throat and sounds all officious< Rape is never the victims fault.... >giggles< But isn't Rodney so beautiful when he's hurting! And he really did need to learn not to be such a smart ass... not quite like this... yummy, angsty, lovely, story.... I'm a sick and twisted girl. >giggle

Author's Response: I am debating whether or not to begin the healing process for him, or to continue the torture.


I shall leave this uncommented, because if I do, heads will start rolling.

Comments

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

Hey, posting this here but -- if the fic in question is the one I'm thinking it is, have you read it? Because it does not glorify or romanticise rape in any way. In fact, it's one of the better rape-recovery stories I've read.

I mean, I have read stories that are all about genuine rape before, but they're usually by idiots who can't write what they mean, if you press them; people who are sick either because they've been through that kind of thing and just not dealing well, or are otherwise mentally not-stable; or because they're male and thoughtless.

So... I mean, I'm not saying I disagree to any particular point, especially since I clearly don't know the fics in question, but the one you referenced isn't glorifying rape at all.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Note that I wasn't talking about the story, merely of the disclaimer giving a nod to rape-fic-fans and them "not getting their jollies". I realise that the fic in question doesn't do what I'm objecting to. But this disclaimer? Still drives me up the walls, mainly because the wording is abysmally bad chosen, and because I know that rape (and I'm talking honest to god rape here, and not dubious consent)-fic-fans exist.

[ladycat777.livejournal.com]

Just checking, I wasn't sure; I get confused easily *g*.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

No problem, it's likely that my wording wasn't clear. It is a touchy subject, after all, and you never see the person you're talking to on LJ, so nuances can get lost.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

By the way - I just made an eta - that one clearly shows what I'm objecting to.

[angelhunter.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking that article. A hard read, but finally someone who gives words to the anger I feel so often. The *squee*-comments for rape-fic are pretty common in anime-fandom, and they make me want to grab through the monitor and choke those minldess bitches every time.

There is that one story on my comp that rides the very thin line between forced seduction and rape, and I just cannot finish the damned thing. Not because I am too timid, or chicken out, but because I think I am not good enough a writer to do that subject justice.

I fear that this story will remain unfinished forever.

Seeing other writers treat this as a kink makes me mad as hell.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

I'll name names if you do. Also, "he really did learn not to be such a smart ass" is just, wow. I sure hope they put that on my tomb someday.

[kismeteve.livejournal.com]

That review was just gross.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Seeing other writers treat this as a kink makes me mad as hell.

See, exactly my problem. Not fic dealing with it in a mature way. But handling it as a kink, as something to find "hot" and "sexy". Those words seen in that context alone make my violently ill.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

I was so damn ready to butt in and call her on the incredible shit she was spewing off there. Some people truly disgust me.

[enname.livejournal.com]

*grim*

[sgatlantislight.livejournal.com]

Actually, I suspect I'm the author in question, though I can't be sure as I've only seen your post post-edit. But the disclaimer was intentionally worded not as a "nod" to rape-as-kink/erotica fans, but as a slap in the face. Sorry if that offends you by calling it as I see it-- they're in it for the titillation and my story wasn't written to titillate.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

There was less in the post pre-edit, so you didn't miss anything.
Without mincing words, yes, you are the author I'm referring to when I talk about the disclaimer. It is one of my absolute hot buttons, and while you mean well, the wording wasn't exactly showing the biting sarcasm I now know you meant to get across. Please note that I wasn't objecting to the story. I'm not reading it - as I said earlier, this is one of the places I cannot go, for several reasons - but I do realise that from your other disclaimer and from Ladycat's words that you do treat the subject with care. I understand where you came from in your disclaimer - but do understand me as well, please, for misunderstanding it in the way that I did.
Again, as I said above: It is a touchy subject, after all, and you never see the person you're talking to on LJ (or reading from), so nuances can get lost.

[sgatlantislight.livejournal.com]

*nods* I suppose I can see where it would offend, but I just plain didn't want a bunch of rape-fic fans going, "Oh, are you going to write more of the rape? Please?!" in comments, so I wanted something that would warn them away in no uncertain terms and make sure they understood that I know what they want and they're not going to get it.

I just find it interesting that a fic that's generated numerous private emails and messages from rape survivors about its sensitivity and realism has also, apparently, generated a bit of a tempest regarding the sort of fic that I was intentionally avoiding writing and the fans who read them. I find the rape-as-kink and rape-as-seduction fics' appeal to certain people to be mystifying. The comments to this post concerning what I call the "magic healing penis" fics has clarified their popularity for me a little bit-- desire by the victims to have a resolution that they, personally, did not-- but I still find them very hard to swallow and offensive to survivors who still bear the psychological scars half a lifetime after the event. But, it still clarifies their raison-d'etre. The first kind, though, I will never understand the appeal.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

To be entirely honest, your disclaimer was only what finalised a rant that had been long forming. I understand where you're coming from, I really do, I just couldn't stomach the wording - and of course, the implication, especially knowing fully well that people like the ones we're talking about exist, when somewhere in my mind, I had always been hoping that it was just one or two people who were seriously batshit. Obviously, they are not, and your disclaimer brought that forcibly to the front of my mind: This is real. People actually do get their "jollies" as you so put it, out of other people's trauma. And that just disgusts me as much as it obviously does you.

So, just to bring this to a point where you don't think I'm mad at you or don't understand you: I'm not and I do. And, despite me not being able to read the story out of the aforementioned personal reasons, I can honestly say that I'm glad you're taking the time to deal with this subject slowly and with dignity.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

*flashbacks to HP*
I'm still wary how the enjoyment of rape is seeping in via sex slavery, but I guess in a way the euphemistic way the big reccers laud it, while fraudulent in itself, keeps such open glee ("omg so hot how he split Harry's ass in two and then peed into his bleeding hole") to a minimum.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

I have incredible problems with sex-slavery fics, because for the most part, it's done without thinking about the consequences of what enslaving a person does to that person. It's apparently often thought of as cute and heeeh, look, JOhn's a sex-slave, isn't that hot? Or the part of fandom that is all "Oooooh, let's break John, he's so repressed, he can only find his way to his true self once he has been broken by rape and torture while being a slave, so that in the end, he can be with his one true love and stop being so emotionally closed off."
I cannot even begin to describe how both incredibly fucking mad and incredibly fucking nauseous this line of thinking makes me.
(Stop me now, or I'll never stop ranting.)

And, man, what you describe make me so incredibly glad I never dived deep into the HP fandom.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

No way am I going to stop you. Whenever another popular writer spews out one of those, I feel sick for weeks, because at least the well-known non-con writers can be avoided or the really atrociously written ones can be easily dissembled, but once the reccers get going on how good and truly slash andIstopmyselfnowbeforegettingtoodetailed this reclaiming of whatever is, you have the awful fic, the hateful diegesis, the loathesome message, the squeeing sadist fandom AND the quality stamp of approval from self-appointed leaders in taste. There can't be enough ranting about it.

The bad thing about it esp. in HP is how the majority of adult fandom is behind it. I've read more posts and discussions about it than actual fics, and the nay-sayers always end up as the hypocritical stuffy enemies.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Good god, finally someone with common sense.

I didn't say it out loud before, but yes, every time one of those stories gets recced, and gets recced by a bnf (however you define one, I personally don't mean it in a negative sense, just as someone who is very well known in fandom), it automatically means that the story gets much more attention than it deserves, and, as you put it, a stamp of approval, and that is just so unbelievably infuriating, because this kind of thinking is so inherently flawed, it's like saying: Well, the girl asked to be raped by wearing a short skirt. John is asking to be violated because he is so repressed, or Rodney is asking to be violated because he just can't be cured of his flawed personality otherwise.
The moral issues behind this aside, where is the appeal in taking a character the author claims to *love* and twisting and hurting him/her that much?

I realise your flist is alread quite big, but, would you mind if I friended you? I like people with common sense.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

I actually snorted out loud at that. It's not that I think I don't have good sense, I just had forgotten that people might agree. ;)

Don't ask that question - there are too many people happy to give you long answers, possibly involving liberation (of themselves), meta-text, and how we are too boring to understand that it's done for love.
I admit that since I've never seen it applied to other characters than J, I was tempted to read fics raping them, being honest enough with myself to say that it would be in retaliation.
See, to go away from the RL atrocity for a moment and stick with readers and writers, quite apart from the meta folks and the doers, there's also a divide that I've never seen addressed before, or rather only addressed in a belittling way as "canon-whores vs. good writers". It's clear in my head, hence hard to explain - it's much easier to write wild porn or enjoy kinks if you do not actually care at all about the character. They might be IC, but the writer or reader is firmly in their own head, seeing the characters as pliable sex toys. *deleted rest for increasing incoherency*
It's a completely distanced relationship that is not appearant to most people, from what I can see, because these fans might profess their "love" loudly and cheerfully, but it's completely incompatible with those of writers or readers going for emotional truth.
(Seriously, this is VERY BADLY phrased, I apologise. I left it sit here for hours, but didn't end up making it any better).


You must be confusing me with someone else (or you're one of these hackers, eeep; as I had to explain a lot lately, I haven't seen my frolist in years and wouldn't know anyone friended me (much less why) unless they talked to me a lot)! Heh. It's not that big, and anyone can friend anytime. But since I think you are not likely to behave like a certain person we are both acquainted with, I feel I should add that ... you might want to overthink this, don't make any rash decisions. *g*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Darn, I had meant to add this one thing before replying:
The problem will always be that anyone who expresses themselves well can say anything on LJ and convince the masses, even if they are seriously emotionally wonky, which even or esp. the most verbal and best-at-rhetoric people might well be. There's only words, and in a half-secret sphere concerning most private things at that, and over the years I have seen nothing to contradict this opinion.