Feedback issues
Mar. 10th, 2006 09:35 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
eretriaThe ratio of reader toward feedbackers is really interesting.
I know it was sneaky of me to post a counter with the first chapter of Fates, but I was curious.
And, yeah, it's just been cemented. There are over 1000 hits on the first chapter (and no, it doesn't count visits from the same IP-address twice) - and roughly 35-40 feedbacks. Not that I cry for more feedback, the people who do leave feedback are absolutely wonderful, but there seem to be an awful lot of people who just consume, hm?
Why the huge discrepancy? Is it just those people who want to finish the story before leaving feedback? In any case, it's a bit of a puzzle for both Auburn and me.
Same thing for the soundtrack, now that I think of it - over 200 hits, and only ten comments. It's a good thing![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sg1padawan has kindly offered me her webspace, or mine would completely crash.
I know it was sneaky of me to post a counter with the first chapter of Fates, but I was curious.
And, yeah, it's just been cemented. There are over 1000 hits on the first chapter (and no, it doesn't count visits from the same IP-address twice) - and roughly 35-40 feedbacks. Not that I cry for more feedback, the people who do leave feedback are absolutely wonderful, but there seem to be an awful lot of people who just consume, hm?
Why the huge discrepancy? Is it just those people who want to finish the story before leaving feedback? In any case, it's a bit of a puzzle for both Auburn and me.
Same thing for the soundtrack, now that I think of it - over 200 hits, and only ten comments. It's a good thing
sg1padawan has kindly offered me her webspace, or mine would completely crash.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:13 am (UTC)Of course, now that I have written two stories for SGA, I see it from the other side--every person commenting that they liked my work is occasion for a happy dance, another reason to write more, another validation for the hard work I (and every author) put into the story. So I've started trying to leave comments on everything I read, but sometimes it's too hard to think of something original to say. It seems a little redundant to go "wow, this is awesome" or "this part isn't quite right, but I liked the rest" if there have already been 20 comments like that.
Another reason, and it's selfish, I know, but sometimes I just want to enjoy the story and not have to say anything. Adhering absolutely to the requirement of "feedback EVERYTHING you read" seems to turn finishing a story into work instead of letting me luxuriate in the afterglow of a well-written story.
Reason number three would be that sometimes fic doesn't inspire me to leave feedback. This is definitely the case with run of the mill PWP; I like reading it but it feels like popcorn. One porn scene after another gets fairly indistinguishable from the next, and I don't want an author to realize that I leave the exact same comment on everyone's fic.
Now in list format for easy reading.
Date: 2006-03-10 09:16 am (UTC)1. other people have said what I wanted to say. I can't be original in my feedback.
2. I don't have a lot of stories, so why should anyone take what I say seriously?
3. I am being selfish and don't want to put the work into leaving a comment.
4. The fic itself is uninspiring; I don't want to encourage the author to write more of the same.
5. I mean to leave a comment but I forget, or I have too much going on in other windows, or I lose the story in a browser crash, or there's nowhere to leave feedback. (Catchall technical difficulties, probably the most common reason for me.)
Re: Now in list format for easy reading.
Date: 2006-03-10 09:24 am (UTC)*whacks you* Writing few or many stories hasn't anything to do with taking you seriously. There are people who write bucketloads and I don't take them seriously, and there are those with only two or three stories and I admire them. And sometimes, someone is not a writer at all, I I absolutely adore reading their notes. You can tell a smart reader and will take his/her opinion into account. Believe me. Because, right here? Yeah. Taking you absolutely seriously.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:38 am (UTC)Another reason: I think other people might be able to read something awesome and think "They should KNOW how great it is, they wrote it, right? Why do they need me to validate them?" I don't even mean just with BNFs, I mean that some fic is so well-written, it just seems superfluous to leave a comment.
Of course, I tend to assume everyone is as insecure as I am and so I comment in hopes of encouraging fledgling egos.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:47 am (UTC)In all honesty, here? While a tiny part of me thinks: Yes, this is good, the bigger part of me always says: "Crap. All crap. What if people don't like it?"
So, yeah. With the fantastic self-esteem as well, here. Ego-patting is definitely needed, and doesn't make this writer grow a second head. Even loads of feedback don't convince me completely. Strange, isn't it? I admire authors who are centred and sure of their abilities.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:21 am (UTC)Only ... I don't consider Auburn and myself as BNFs. Are people intimidated? We don't bite, and certainly love even short comments.
Feedback everything isn't do-able. You're right, it would just turn reading into work. But ... when there was a story you loved a lot, don't you find yourself going back after a while, leaving feedback then? I know I do, when the initial response was too overwhelming.
I hope this didn't come across accusatory here. I'm just trying to understand people better.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:30 am (UTC)When there is a story I loved a lot, I definitely do try to feedback. I try to feedback everything that sparks something in me, actually, and I feel like other people should be the same way.
I think it's just laziness, really. And a lot of people will actually NOT feedback something if you seem to be begging, so that sort of fucks that avenue up. It's not kosher for the author to say "I will only continue if I get enough feedback!" but legions of readers will just consume, burp, and close the window.
There's definitely an inequality there; unfortunately, again, if authors all "demand"* feedback then there would be a huge backlash. Everyone makes fun of the "when I get 75 comments I'll continue the stroy!" attention-mongers, but deep down inside, as authors, there's no reason to continue to write publicly if we didn't crave the attention.
I thought of another reason why I don't leave feedback, even when I LOVE the story. Since I'm new to the fandom, I've read a lot of things 6 months or even a year after it's been posted first and think "wow, I LOVE this, but... I probably shouldn't feedback it, I'm sure they're over it now."
*I put demand in quotes because again, it's impossible for authors to DEMAND anything of their readers, really, since it's not like we can ban them if they don't comment or shoot them or anything.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:35 am (UTC)*gasps* *points* So YOU'RE the one who's eating up all my bandwidth omg!
No, it doesn't have ANYTHING to do with those SG-1 and BSG eps. *whistles*:D
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:38 am (UTC)Did the speeds get any better, by the way? And, when the time's there, tell me when I should upload more. Uh, wait. There was something missing, right? Season 2, right? End of it?
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:42 am (UTC)End of Season 2 would be brilliant. After that, I'm going to have to put it ALL on hold because it looks like the webhost is going to be going through a lot of directories with high bandwidth and/or storage and nuking those that have illegal content
like the aforementioned eps *facepalm*. So I might have to wait and see. Not sure yet if I'll keep them up for a bit then delete them, or try to find another way of 'hiding' what they are (zipping, password protecting, etc).no subject
Date: 2006-03-10 09:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-10 09:54 am (UTC)Thank you kindly!
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:37 am (UTC)Three Fates is so huge that I would be stupid not to comment. A good place to start mending my lurker ways.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:43 am (UTC)But it's always good to find out the reasons for people to not feedback. Because - and that's what I feel like when not leaving any myself - it's a bit like eating the cake, and leaving the table without saying a word. Sure, the cake would have been eaten, ayway, but the baker certainly feels a bit dejected from not hearing any word on whether or not you enjoyed it.
And, from a writer's POV - feedback that comes ages after a story has been posted can be much sweeter than you think. I know I always do a small dance when I realise that older stories are still being read.
And, wow, really, it's manners that stop you from commenting? That's fascinating.
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Date: 2006-03-10 11:49 am (UTC)I shall bear your comment regarding feedback on older stories in mind. Sometimes I am just not sure that posts are still being received/checked after that long. On that note, I fear I may owe both you and Auburn a gallon of feedback!
Leading me rather niftily to my other point. I am not a fan of leaving a comment that is just 'Yay!', in part because I am wordy by nature but also because if I have been reading someone's back catalogue it does not seem to suffice. Commentary takes time sometimes it gets lost in the general rush of life. A bad excuse but one I have uttered to myself occasionally.
Yes, manners do stop me. Perhaps it has to do with livejournal and the way each journal is a private sphere, but I feel uncomfortable leaving drive by comments without some sort of prior 'introduction'. Ridiculous really, but nevertheless true.
I wonder what is the ratio of feedback that published authors get, compared to their sales? It would be interesting to see if it is less or more. After all in some ways (if you don't have politeness issues like me) easier to leave commentary in an electronic format, than to get it through a publishing company etc.
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Date: 2006-03-10 01:17 pm (UTC)Also, since people's writing tends to get better the longer they write, the older stuff isn't usually as good as new stuff, and if it gets complimented, then that means your newer stuff is even better! *g*
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Date: 2006-03-11 12:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-11 12:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-10 09:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-03-10 10:23 am (UTC)This low strike rate on comments doesn't surprise me. I have been involved in organised S/F fandom of some sort since the early 1980's, and this phenomenon fascinated me even then. There is a huge percentage of fandom who, even when they bestir themselves to go to meetings, or heaven-forbid, conventions, do little more than sit on the seats, listening to the speakers, trawling the dealers' tables for photos etc, and nothing more. No volunteering, no costuming, no writing or publishing. They are the vast majority, and they are out there.
The internet, in my opinion, is no different. There is a good reason the term 'lurker' was coined for these folk. I am hoping that LJ will reverse that trend somewhat, but have no empirical evidence for this to date. The thing is, LJ is much more personal than archives and websites, where the reader is faced with an anonymous feedback proforma and probably will never hear back from the author. Many archives don't keep the feedback public, and those that do, require the reader to click on another link to read the feedback already given. LJ has it all upfront, straight after the piece consumed, and therefore more conducive to eliciting feedback from the next person. Until the feedback goes into multiple pages and the feedbacker starts to think they better only reply if they have something insightful and spectacular to say... and most of us don't think our feedback falls into that category *g*
What I can say is that LJ has made me a much more diligent feedbacker, but I still don't stray much past feedbacking my f'list unless I come across either a gem or an encouraging new writer. I read so, so, so much material that only those to whom I feel I have some relationship, or someone who impresses me, will stir me to act.
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Date: 2006-03-10 12:49 pm (UTC)b) I left a tick on that counter, but no feedback. So blame me. :)))
c) It *is* possible (although I can't understand it for the life of me ;) ) that people checked out the first chapter and didn't like it.
d) The normal ratio for responses to e.g. marketing mailings etc. - for *interested audiences* - is 5%. That means 50 responses to your 1000 registered viewers. You are very close to that. I think you're doing great. Never expect to get more than that, it's just how things work. The majority of people lurk, and always will.
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Date: 2006-03-10 12:54 pm (UTC)And then there's the whole "I really like this story, but don't feel a need to leave feedback on every part, rather than just the ones that specifically move me to comment", which I think makes total sense. Of course, I would, since I'm one of the ones who uses it.
I don't know--as a writer, I've always craved feedback as much as anyone else, but I've also always felt my lack of it* was just because no one was interested in reading my fics, not because they did and thought them bad. So if I had evidence that a thousand people at least bothered to take a look, I'd probably be thrilled. (I would never install a hit counter on my fic, though, since I'm also paranoid and would rather not know no one reads it. :))
Oh, and you needn't worry--there's a clear difference between an honest desire for discussion on feedbacking and a blatant "I'm holding my story hostage if I don't get at least XX replies!!!!one!"
* At the height of my fic writing, I once counted up the feedback I received in what at the time was a very large, very active, vocal fandom. I averaged between 2 and 3 pieces of feedback per post. And I was posting on multiple mailing lists with large memberships, so it wasn't a matter of no one's being able to find my fic, as it is now on LJ.
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Date: 2006-03-10 01:10 pm (UTC)As a writer, I detest people like me! *g* There are times though when I have read online and just have nothing to say after I've read the fic. Not because it was bad, it may have been really good, I just don't really have anything constructive to say, and instead of being one of those: 'hey, that was great' reviewers, I post nothing. I suppose I don't mind getting 'hey, that was great' reviews myself, but as a reviewer, I don't see the point in saying that unless I can pinpoint something that really struck me. I'm a better reviewer if I know the person! *g*
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Date: 2006-03-10 01:33 pm (UTC)I started thinking about this way back in the days of SD-1, where the hit counter was right there. Of course, it didn't occur to me how precious feedback was to the author until I started writing. Just about the only time I don't leave feedback is if it's too hard (ie, email is the only option) or the fic already has 200 comments and the author hasn't responded to any of them. In that last case, I just get the impression that my "I loved it" isn't going to matter much to the author.
Of course, also in the list of strange commenting behaviour, is how a fic that took two hours to write (and is completely crack) can generate 100 comments while a fic that requires weeks of work, generates only a few. *shrugs* Utter strangeness.
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Date: 2006-03-10 02:30 pm (UTC)Oh god, do I know that feeling. It always pains me to see how little feedback murron gets, even though she is an outstanding writer, with an incredible caring attitude toward words and an uncanny eye for plotlines. She is so damn good, and yet she barely gets any feedback. On the other hand, when there is a piece of PWP porn posted, it gets 50 + reviews within the matter of hours. Why, I wonder? Are people not interested in plots? Is it really all about the porn? (Which I like as much as the next person, just ... why? Why the huge discrepancy in feedback between gen and het/slash?)
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Date: 2006-03-10 02:57 pm (UTC)If a story is really good, though, like yours or murron's? That calls for an intelligent and insightful review. At least that is what some readers think.
So, really good stories might intimidate the readership a little, especially when it has already gathered one or two very good reviews. Many people think that they have to compete with the quality of the story and the good reviews, and that intimidates them.
Me? I wait till I have read a little bit more and have gotten a feeling for the story (yeah, lame excuse, I know...). Also, I haven't got a lot of online time at the moment. *meh*
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Date: 2006-03-10 05:10 pm (UTC)Still haven't started the story, btw. I'm inching my way through Murron's story first. How can I be so busy but feel like I'm not doing anything? Rest assured, when I read it I WILL comment. ;-) And no fretting because I know I'm going to enjoy it.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:35 pm (UTC)And I can't believe Secrets Unveiled got 19000 hits and only 44 comments. But then again, 44 is a pretty impressive number in itself, so maybe it'd be better to just look at the number of feedbacks and ignore the counter. I'm not bothered by what I don't know, right?
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:46 pm (UTC)One thing: if you're getting high numbers of hits, that in itself is a compliment because word of stories often spreads by word of mouth. Someone has to be telling someone that the story is worth reading.
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Date: 2006-03-10 07:04 pm (UTC)Of course, this was pre-LJ, and LJ stories tend to get more feedback because it's so easy, but even so 44 LOCs or equivalent on part one is actually bucking the trend by a factor of 4.
My experience in fandom sort of backs up. It's not new, I'm afraid. But then I'm used to low or even no feedback given what I tend to write, and with this being a mixed sex threesome, I can't say I'm surprised by the low feedback.
Actually, no. It doesn't strike me as being low. It strikes me as being very high. It's certainly a lot higher numerically than a lot of authors get for the same or even more hits. For example, that's a higher level than I've received on any story in this fandom (or indeed on any story ever in over 10 years of writing), so from my perspective that's bloody good ::g:: Especially when that's only on the first part and when there are probably people, like me, who won't read wips. I won't be reading it until it's fully posted and so won't be feedbacking until then.
And I can't be the only one.
Sorry :) That doesn't sound particularly sympathetic, does it? But hopefully it's put it into perspective so you won't be feeling too badly about it.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:30 pm (UTC)I am perfectly okay with the feedback we're getting. This may have come across wrong. I was just honestly curious how the discrepancies come into being.
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Date: 2006-03-10 09:09 pm (UTC)Now that I'm on LJ, if I liked a fic I try to at least leave one word of praise. I know what those little crumbs can mean to an author, even though I haven't written much.
I think your current fic is a special case for me because, knowing it's finished, I'd prefer to read it in one big chunk. And, in all honesty, for this particular fic I'm not sold on their initial reactions as being in character (my opinion!) so I'm waiting to see where it goes.
Oh, what the hell. I don't buy McKay and Sheppard freaking out like they did. To my mind, Rodney would comprehend what he'd done and (even with the terrible blow to his ego/arrogance) would immediately go about trying to fix it. I also don't buy John's sulking/skulking/shunning during the daytime, what with his canon attitude of responsibility towards his people. Yes, he'd be feeling the shock of losing everyone else, but I think he also would be right there with Rodney in the Fix It mindset.
Weir's reaction, especially to the isolation, I really do like. Her frustration at the way Atlantis ignores her is great. And I do like how they're all touch-deprived and going a little crazy with nobody else to interact with.
Hmmm... I could see Rodney gradually going funny & seeing the "ghosts" as the story progresses, especially if/when things that they're trying to fix/prevent go wrong, instead of his immediate freakout. But your approach certainly does make for a dramatic story, and I'm more than willing to go along for the ride.
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Date: 2006-03-12 02:04 am (UTC)I finish less than half of the stories I open. Not multi-part epics, but just that part. I click away within the first five paragraphs an awful lot of the time, and do not leave feedback when I do that because the feedback would be "the first five paragraphs didn't interest me enough to keep going." Which feels pretty harsh, and not all that useful, especially when chances are it's not anything they did *wrong* that made me feel that way, so much as it's not my pairing, it's not my kink, it's not my characterization, it's not my mood.
Those are the clicks which, in a book store, would be me liking the title enough to pick it up, reading the back cover and a page at random, and then putting it down again. Since fandom doesn't have book covers and blurbers or much in the way of summaries -- or the deterrant of the cover price -- our second cut tends to happen after the click through. (First cut, of course, is when you have no interest at all.)
Chances are if I make it through the first five paragraphs I'll make it through the first couple of thousand words. But at any moment a twist in the story or the charactization can lose me. And even for the stories I finish, there's a good chance my reaction is "well, that was there." So again, I don't leave feedback.
Many writers I know don't want criticism. Even those that do tend to want their criticism to have reasons. But a lot of the time, as a reader, I don't have reasons beyond "it didn't grab me." Or sometimes my reasons are "you made a perfectly legitimate choice that I happen to really dislike." Or "oh god not that again," which isn't really fair either, since I'm not judging it on its own merits, but as part of the total universe of my reading. So, again, I shut up. I can't imagine that most people want pages and pages of comments that say somewhere between "not my cup of tea" and "meh".
I leave feedback for virtually every story I like, and for about half of those that I think had promise but made specific mistakes that I can explain and defend. (the other half are by people who I don't know will welcome that approach). But together those make up at most 15 percent of stories I click on. The rest is silence, because if I can't say anything nice *or* anything useful, I don't say anything at all. And I don't think I'm alone in that. Maybe my corner of fandom is strange, but I don't know hardly anyone who just consumes. What I do know is a whole bunch of people who reward selectively, not everything they consume - or start to consume -- but only what they enjoy.
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Date: 2006-03-12 04:39 pm (UTC)When I first entered fandom, pre-LJ, I actually felt intimidated emailing authors to give feedback amounting to "Wow, I liked it." I managed to lurk many years without ever giving feedback. Since I've had an LJ account, I think I have gotten better at feedback. I give feedback much more often, even if it is just "I enjoyed it." LJ feels less formal to me than email, and it makes me more comfortable leaving very brief feedback. And I think my feedback has actually improved, as far as I am more often trying to explain how the story worked for me. But I still don't leave feedback on every story I read. Some of my reasons are:
--First, I DL many stories to my PDA for reading, so sometimes I'll read stories, then forget to go back to the author to leave feedback. Not really a good reason, I know, but true nonetheless.
--Sometimes I'm lazy.
--I won't leave feedback on stories I didn't like, because I've seen to many people get burned by doing that.
--Yes, the number of comments the author already has does influence me. If the story already has tons of comments saying what I already would, I don't always give feedback because I think, what is one more "I liked it" really going to mean to the author. I hope I've gotten better at ignoring this reason, though. Posts like yours remind me that even a short comment is appreciated by the author.
--Sometimes I am too overwhelmed by the story, and any short feedback seems inadequate for the impact the story had on me, but I am unable to phrase longer, more detailed feedback in a way that makes it worth of the story itself. The *story* itself intimidates me, not the author. I'm not sure that makes sense, and I'm not sure why I feel that way. I think that some examples of this are actually some of Auburn's stories--The Taste of Apples, Sacrifical Drift, and Legion the Things I would Give to Oblivion. I rec these to anyone who will listen, they are some of my favorite stories in the fandom, and yet I think I left very short, "I liked this"-type feedback on maybe 2 out of 3. For me, the stories were so good and affected me enough, that I feel that anything less than detailed feedback is inadequate, yet since I can't figure out how to put how I feel on paper, I don't leave any at all. It doesn't make any sense at all, but there you go. I guess in a way it falls into the 'reader feeling unworthy/low self esteem' category that was mentioned earlier, but it's not quite that.
I do think that the longer readers are on LJ/in fandom, the better many of them are at giving feedback. I know I am improving. I do think that, just as authors tend to hone their craft of writing the longer they do it, some readers get trained in how to give feedback, too. Either from meta-posts like this or by seeing on LJ how other people give feedback.
For the record, though, I haven't started Three Fates yet. I am excited about it, but I think I want to wait until it is completely posted first. I anticipate that it is going to be angsty enough without the added torture of waiting for each part ;)
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Date: 2006-03-19 02:42 am (UTC)Especially in regards to the role of the AI and the responses of the three to her -- I am puzzled by the complete sense of evil ascribed to the AI by some readers. Because really, we only see the AI through the imperfect lenses of John, Rodney and Elizabeth. (And please note that I am refusing to refer to the AI as Atene -- I am trying really hard to remain impartial to the AI and see what plays out!)
So, I think that you and Auburn have written a long, thinky piece with many layers. Maybe there are more readers like me, who are trying to sort through the layers and gather thoughts?
Also, I am one of the 200 downloaders of the soundtrack. I have to say that I have been able to match some of the songs to the action -- but then the songs remaining leave me with an ominous feeling in my stomach!
Late as usual
Date: 2006-03-29 01:45 am (UTC)I've totally bought into your premise and accept the characters actions and emotions... even if I want to yell at them. When I get in that ~zone~ I tend to internalize the emotions and can actually get ~too invested~ (silly tho that may sound) and your story is wrenching!!
On completion, I'll be ready to go back and be able to give a more dispassionate review of what impacted, overwhelmed and just generally kicked my ass...
I really do try to leave coin of the realm (Feedback) when I enjoy a story, except for those times that I really really mean well but RL just gets in the way...
On the other hand, if I don't have anything good to say, then I don't say anything at all because who am I to make judgement... especially if it just isn't my particular cup of tea?
And I am forever grateful that those who write are willing to share.