indie-fans

[eretria]

After reading seperis' heads up on this post and the answering one here, I am a bit at a loss.

Basically, the first post states (and I'm oversimplifying the arguments here in order to make this brief) that if you write well and a lot, eventually comments will come.

The second post states that even if you write well and a lot, but for the wrong pairing, or gen, you might be the most excellent writer, and comments will still be sparse.

What drives me bonkers about this (by which I don't mean that I'm criticising either entry) is that there are people who, even if not in the quantities other people are, have written several stories over the past two years, which were excellent in plot, structure and emotional resonance, and were even in fandom's choice pairing, and STILL they have trouble breaching the double digits when it comes to comments.

Yes, I'm talking about murron. Call me biased. Yes, she is my best friend. But she is also and excellent, fantastic writer, something I'd see even if we weren't friends. Her sense of scenery and atmosphere is impeccable. Her characterisation rings true. Her dialogues are in character. She offers plot. She offers team-moments. She offers romance, and what's worth more, she offers and delivers intimacy, emotional intimacy. She writes McShep. She offers incredibly well done and not over the top angst. She has the most deft hand a suspense I have ever seen.
And yet ... few comments.
And I don't freaking get it. She doesn't ping people's radar, and it's all wrong, because she's good, damn it, she's excellent, and she should be known.

Now, she doesn't take it as badly, but a certain hopelessness shone through when she told me the other day that with the story she's writing on now, she doesn't really expect people to finish reading it because of the extensive plot and the slowly building suspense and the way the story just takes its time revealing layer by layer what is happening.

And that is something that makes me come back to one of my (well, our) own and wonder: Would Fates have done so well if there hadn't been such a heavy dose of McShep porn to go with the plot?

And, thus, would murron need porn in her stories to get acknowledged? And, if so - isn't that incredibly sad?

Comments

[enednoviel.livejournal.com]

Hon, I think lack of feedback is becoming more and more of a general problem these days.

We just had (or still have) this discussion in the S&H fandom. A fandom that has been around for ages now. Some wonderful authors have quit for good, because they got the feeling that they were "dumping their stories into a vacuum". Sad but true, because no one gave any feedback on them. S&H still publishes a lot of zines and especially these stories don't get feedback anymore whatsoever. And this is fatal for smaller and older fandoms like S&H who can't afford to lose a single creative soul.

I think it's a general problem though. Maybe it's because media like internet turns a lot of people into mere consumers who... yeah, well, just consume without giving anything back. :(

[enednoviel.livejournal.com]

Oh, and another thing: popularity has nothing to do with quality. Just look at the current bestseller lists.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. Diana Gabaldon. Or, Da Vinci Code. Augh. Augh.

[enednoviel.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

[few.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, I've seen this happen in every fandom I've ever been in. It's not even necessarily tied to a lack of porn--I've seen exactly the same phenomenon in a fandom that only allows stories rated PG-13 and under. Some of the best, most nuanced authors I've read in that fandom consistently received fewer comments than the angst queens with the cardboard, interchangable characters whose only resemblance to those in the canon was in the names--and sometimes even those were barely related. Granted, this was a fandom that by its very nature required a lot more tolerance for AUs than most, but still; that's no reason not to keep personalities recognisable!

I sometimes wish I were still inspired to write for that fandom, precisely because it's the only place where my refusal to write porn is actually accepted; but I'm not, and in the end I'd rather write whatever I am inspired to write, whether it will get comments or not. Otherwise, I might as well go for that porn thing after all. :) I suspect that part of the reason I have so many almost-finished stories (a couple only lack titles!) languishing on various hard drives is because there's really no motivation to post them. That's been the case even when I was writing popular pairings in highly active fandoms, so...yeah. I know exactly what you mean, even if it's not your own writing you're talking about.

Looking back over this, it's clear I should never try to compose LJ comments at work; doesn't lend itself to taking the time needed to edit for conciseness. (Which word looks wrong, but the OED likes it, so I'm guessing I didn't just make it up...*shrug*)

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know what you mean. But, then again, despite the fact that of course, we all are attention whores, and of course we all want feedback, Kat has found a beautiful zen moment in saying: If only the people I care about the most like what I write, I am content. I must say that I envy her that zen. I will not stop writing, because that's something that is essential to me, but to post and be ignored? Is still painful. Which, again, is something LJ spoiled for us, I guess. Published authors rarely get direct feedback from readers, and yet they keep writing.
But we're all just human, and it's inherent that we all want to get patted on the head and have people saying: Well done.

[ninasis.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I'm horrible about leaving feedback. Before the baby I was a little better, but still pretty bad. But now that I have a very limited amount of time to do any reading, feedback is the farthest thing from my mind. Reading the posts about this latest kerfluffle has made me feel horridly guilty and I will once again strive to comment on every fic that I read and enjoy!

The thing with posting fic to LJ is that you don't even have the option of seeing the stats of who's reading your posts. I know that's why a lot of authors will post an announcement in their LJ but have the actual story on their website. Would that be something that

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I have to admit that I'm horrible about leaving feedback. Before the baby I was a little better, but still pretty bad. But now that I have a very limited amount of time to do any reading, feedback is the farthest thing from my mind. Reading the posts about this latest kerfluffle has made me feel horridly guilty and I will once again strive to comment on every fic that I read and enjoy!

The thing with posting fic to LJ is that you don't even have the option of seeing the stats of who's reading your posts. I know that's why a lot of authors will post an announcement in their LJ but have the actual story on their website. Would that be something that <ljuser="murron"> could do? She might be surprised to see how many people are reading her stories. It won't cure the problem of little feedback, but it might at least reassure her to see that folks are reading...

And now that you've done such an awesome job pimping her, I'll certainly be checking her out!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

There are easy ways to track stats on LJ posts as well, but it is rather counter productive to get 3.000 hits and five comments :)

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Word.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

I hope you do understand that I did not write this post to be passive aggresive about feedback. That wasn't even anywhere near my mind.

My problem just is that a lot of people are unwilling to try out new writers, even if they write exactly what the broad majority of readers crave. Which is sad, and it drives me insane to see Kat not getting the recognition she deserves.

As for the statistics ... speaking from personal experience, it's actually more hurtful to see people reading and not commenting than not knowing at all. It makes you wonder what was wrong with the story that it didn't motivate people to leave a comment. (Which, again, not passive aggressive, okay?)

How is the little one, by the way?

[ninasis.livejournal.com]

Not passive-agressive at all! Honest! And I never even thought about how I would feel if I got lots of views but few comments...I can totally see how that would suck even worse.

I will make a second awful admission and say that I never really read anyone new on my own. I have to see someone on my f'list rec them first. This is from spending WAY too much time on ff.net and other horrible sites and reading truly cruddy fics. That's why I'm such an avid supporter of rec'ers - because they do the dirty work for me, so to speak. I wish I had an answer on how good authors can break into a fandom better...because I love it when I come across someone I haven't read before...and now I'm totally rambling.

The baby is good - he's huge and funny and well on his way to being very spoiled! Thank you!

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

As for the statistics ... speaking from personal experience, it's actually more hurtful to see people reading and not commenting than not knowing at all. It makes you wonder what was wrong with the story that it didn't motivate people to leave a comment. (Which, again, not passive aggressive, okay?)


Hmmm.... so do you leave a comment for every story you read?

- Helen

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Not for the ones I didn't like, because I think it's more polite to be quiet rather than tell people into the face that I didn't like the story.
But that's exactly where my problem is. I expect most people to act that way. So, when you see several thousand views, and only 20 comments? You do start to wonder. Well, at least I do.

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's more polite to be quiet rather than tell people into the face that I didn't like the story.

But that is only one motivation for not leaving feedback...

For instance I have completely stopped leaving comments because even my positive feedback seems to annoy people when I am only trying to thank them for a great read. So I am certainly not going to risk it when the author is not a BNF and may actually be hurt by what I intend as a compliment.

I used to simply leave short notes like 'I loved it!' but I have heard from several sources this is a different type of slight which some authors take quite badly (you must have seen some such things yourself, they seem impossible to avoid).

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Every story of hers that I actually read was lovely, it's true.

You know I like porn, but fandom doesn't always seem to think it's necessary -- likethekoschka write plotty McShep established relationship without explicit sex, or any sex at all, and they are hugely popular. Of course, they have a high humour/whimsy quotient last time I checked, so maybe that's an alternative essential element? It sure is why eleveninches is so well-loved in fandom; there's no porn in many of her stories, and the same is true for several of rageprufrock's stories.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Well, but I wouldn't exactly call pru a little known writer, and from what I've seen the larger part of her stories does have sex in it. And here's the rub: Once you are a well known writer, you can write gen and people will read it even if it's not porn. I've seen the same happening on Auburn's fics: There were actually people saying: "I normally never read gen, but because it's you, I'm giving it a try.". Just not the same for little known writers such as Kat. By which I'm not tooting the "evil BNF!" horn (because, really, that's just silly), just stating a fact.
Koschka I shall not comment upon for personal reasons.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Ah, but looking back through her fic in numerous fandoms -- I don't believe she started making a name by writing smut, smut, and more smut, and later throwing in some gen or PG stuff. I think it's a genesis.

But now that you mention it -- the multi-fannish factor is a huge deal, I think, because it gets you the fannish momentum you probably need for lj popularity.

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

I have to butt in here, since you've been taking my name (not in vain). I started out writing gen. Alias, remember? I never wrote any Alias slash fanfic and even my het scenes were pretty abbreviated. I certainly wasn't a well known writer starting out and it's arguable that outside of the Sarkney fringes, I never did become well known. No one knew me in SGA either and my first story was gen. I don't care if you say, well the sequel was slash. The first story [Apples] was very much gen. So, people obviously gave me a try before they might have said 'because it's you'.

Mind you, it's very satisfying to see someone remark that.

But my own experience is why I just can't stomach the BNF cabal claptrap or even the you must be well known to receive comments theory. I don't think I'm that extraordinary that my experience is a statistical outlier.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

ltlj is known for gen. She has the most incidental slash in the fandom--I don't even think of her in the same category as the slash writers, even though she does write it. So I don't think porn is the reason.

But honestly, I'm at a loss sometimes on what it *is* that makes a story popular. I really don't know.

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

A passing thought, because you know I am a fan of murron's stories. Occasionally she even lets me beta for her and I've reached the place now where I don't do that for anyone whose work doesn't really engage me. (Which makes me sound elitist, but the truth is I'm not a stellar beta reader so I'm no loss to the vast majority.)

Oh, God, get to the point, right?

murron's stories are almost intimidating in their excellence. They aren't a bit of fluff or a PWP where you can dash off a "Oh, so cute. I *heart* this" or "Guh, I'll be in my bunk now". With something as impressive as her work, the comment itself needs to be thoughtful and in-depth. The feeling of 'I don't have anything thinky and intelligent to say about this because it is so complex and subtle' keeps many readers silent. There's always that feeling of not wanting to basically duplicate what someone else said.

That's one of the things that keeps me from commenting on many stories - nothing new to say, no question to ask, no interesting or useful observation.

I don't think its lack of porn, except in the sense that most fic porn is easy to comment on.

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

And I should add that murron is not prolific by the standards of SGA fandom at least, in which I can think of authors who post every week or at least every month. Something new by murron may show up ever six to nine months and name recognition is ephemeral in fandom. Nor does she advertise herself or cross post in a dozen different comms. Her work isn't McDonalds' fast food, it's dinner out at the elegant and expensive restaurant you can afford maybe once a year, where you have to maybe buy a new dress and have your hair done just to get in the door. Some people just aren't going to want to make the effort and will stick with a diet of greasy burgers and cold fries.

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Hm. I think you made that comparison before, about a year ago when we talked about this, and I still thinks it's the most fitting one that can possibly be made.

[auburnnothenna.livejournal.com]

I probably have made the same comparison, because my thinking on it hasn't changed.

I rather like the food comparison for another reason. It isn't a value judgment of one author's style over another. Sometimes you want eggplant, sometimes you want steak and most of us always want cheesecake. Some people hate mushrooms, others are allergic to citrus. Fandom needs all of it, so that everyone can find what they like when they like.

[murron.livejournal.com]

Okay, here goes.

I've been hesitant to pitch in because praise usually makes me bail. But I really, really wanted to say this: thank you. E. is right, I'm happy when you guys like my stories, so all this here means a lot.

Your kindness floors me.

*shuffles*

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with Auburn, by the way: I would not call you prolific, and I think that is the main reason you do not have a higher name recognition in SGA fandom.

A guilty, guilty non-feedback leaver!
(who never leaves feedback for anyone, so it should not be taken as a slight)

[eretria.livejournal.com]

Oh, God, get to the point, right?

Yes. Because I keep saying that to you. Uh-hm.

Almost intimidating is right. I feel so privileged to see the stories progress, and I sometimes wonder why she even bothers showing me, because, my god, she is good. (And I know that she will hit me over the head if she reads this.) I know that I never read new scenes she sends me when I'm rushed. I need time for them, because they deserve to be read with the full attention.

I can also agree that on some stories, commenting almost seems pointless, because you'd just be repeating what others have said before you. And I for one hate posting "Yay, great", or just "guh" responses.

[angelhunter.livejournal.com]

There's always that feeling of not wanting to basically duplicate what someone else said.

Exactly. And that is why I just say "Wordy McWord with Wordsauce" to your comment. I wanted to state the same thing in my comment (and how glad am I that I have read what the other commenters wrote before me, or I would feel like a total doofus right now... ).

Every time I read one of murron's stories I feel like nothing I could write in a comment would be even closely appropriate to the quality of her writing. And that has absolutely nothing to do with porn or no porn.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

Feedback is a strange thing. I love it, but I don't live or die by it, and I don't leave it nearly often enough.

What I find really heartening is when I grep through my website's logs and see that one or two people have spent the past afternoon, or even just a half-hour or hour, reading through my fanfic. That's the big reason I'd never give up having my fic on a site I control.

- Helen

[selfinduced.livejournal.com]

dunno if you considered this angle--but for some of us (not too deeply involved in fandom, at least right now)--it's a matter of exposure. we go looking for the fandom and pairing of choice, maybe a specific archetype if we can find it, and start reading whatever comes up first that's bearable.

i'd never heard of this author until this post on any of the sga fic communities i try to keep an eye on (maybe there was a mention somewhere that i didn't notice--something brief that didn't catch my eye). now that i've just seen someone rec her in depth, i'm heading over to check out her fic, because it does sound good and so i want to read it.

as for porn (once the matter of exposure has been taken care of and i've noticed the existence of the fic) it's one of those things that grab your attention, which might lead to higher levels of exposure. i have to admit i'm more likely to click on an R rated story than G. (i'm trying to get over this actually, as some of my favorites are G rated, like nakedwesley's Kindergarten!fic.)

i'm not sure about the reason behind this. personally, porn isn't the top priority on my list of what i want in a fic--but it's one of the things that i do like that i can expect from looking at the header info, along with (sometimes) length.
things like the author's ability with characterization and pacing a plot are more subtle and only discovered when you get to reading the fic itself. the closest you get expecting it beforehand is if someone recs it with a little detailed commentary (especially if it's someone you know writes well or has similar tastes as you).



and then, after all of this is said and the fic is read--whether a reader (me!) will leave feedback is ... dependent on too many things to really be predictable. though my pattern seems to be mainly:

1. do i have anything to say that hasn't been said already? (this is why i rarely comment to really popular fics/authors, because, really, they have hundreds of other comments that are probably far more eloquent than mine and i don't think the lack of one more is going to be noticed) and

2. do i have the energy/time to say it properly? (this is especially important if the fic doesn't have a lot of comments because then the author deserves something thorough and useful--not just "yay! omg! you rawk! can i have your babiez??!1" and so if i don't have the energy righ then, i tend to bookmark it for later. and then spend days agonizing over what to say...)

and yeah. there you go. a very ramble-y description of how feedback works in my brain. sorry for possible lack of coherence. it's 7 am and i haven't yet gone to bed...

[quiller77.livejournal.com]

At the risk of getting slapped, I think our lovely murron's writing is wasted on fanfic. With all the effort she puts into each and every story, I think she should be working toward getting original stuff published. *ducks*

That said, I've been out of fandoms for so long that I have no clue what's going on. (Although this post did give me the urge to go to tf.n and check my stats. I have 4 stories with over 10,000 hits, 1 of them is over 20,000. But the most comments on any of them is 57. Lack of commenting is a long-standing problem.)